Wright Thompson is a senior writer for ESPN.com and ESPN The Magazine who has profiled some of the greatest athletes and coaches of all time, including Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Steve Kerr, Pat Riley, Caitlin Clark, and Dan Gable. He's also the author of 3 books: "The Cost of These Dreams", "The Barn", and "Pappyland".

In this conversation, we discuss optimization versus beauty in sports, sports as vehicles for self-understanding, why fame freezes people at the emotional age they got it, and where the tortured artist myth comes from before ending on mortality and legacy.

Note - in case you're not interested, we spend the first 20 ish minutes of the conversation talking about our shared appreciation for music and certain artists and bands before getting into the aforementioned part of the conversation.

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